Wild West Wednesdays! Lonesome Dove Chapters 11-20

Welcome to week 2 of our Lonesome Dove read along.  Amy of My Friend Amy and Leah of Amused by Books are my cowpokes in this endeavor.

So my individual thoughts on week 2:  As basic as this sounds -- I like it.  Not loving it. Still find it very humorous, but also becoming tedious, like I want to tell Mr. McMurtry, "can we get one with this already??!!"  But I'm trying to be patient and see how it plays out.  

Leah was in charge of this week's discussion, so here it goes:

1. Obviously Texas and Mexico border each other and we've learned that Call and Gus used to be Rangers. Their job was to control the borders. Any Mexican caught stealing horses or cattle on the Texas side was hung or shot, yet they are going down to Mexico to gather their horses and cattle for the drive to Mexico. Newt observes this juxtaposition and so do we? Thoughts?

Leah: I thought it was interesting that this lawlessness was not tolerated in Texas by Call and Gus but they deemed it perfectly acceptable to do the very same thing across the border. Granted, they were getting back some horses and cattle stolen from someone else but they were also getting back others that they didn't know where they came from. How can they deem this so unlawful, yet have no qualms doing it themselves? Granted, I don't know the history behind it and I am not trying to pick some sort of chicken and egg battle between Mexico and Texas because there is way more history there than I can even delve into but I just thought it was interesting that this was touched on in this book.

Melissa: Honestly, I didn’t have any thoughts about this one way or the other while I read it. But, in modern context, it doesn’t seem much different than our current border relations. We aren’t “hanging” what are now “illegal immigrants” as opposed to “Mexicans,” but we want their services (in the book’s case, horses or Bol, the cook) as long as they serve our needs, but are willing to run them back across the border or hang them if they don’t serve our purpose. Not to mention, I think a border “wall” would really cramp Call & Gus’s horse thieving activities!

Amy:  I think it's the interesting two sides of the same coin that always goes with lawmen and criminals, it's all just a bit more obvious here.  Also, protecting one's own property can be a role in one place but they don't have the responsibility or obligation elsewhere.  It's what makes it the Wild West right? :)

2. Call has to go gather men to work on his cattle drive. We get a glimpse into home life in Texas. Some families are eager to give up their eldest sons to have less mouths to feed and some are doing much better. What did you think of these glimpses?

Leah: There were two homes that we saw, one where the father had died and the family didn't even have shoes and only a dirt floor and the other where they had a ton of children yet bountiful amounts of food. I found these glimpses to be fascinating that in the same land some families could be so successful and others could struggle so hard to survive. Is it luck, sheer force of will, or something else that allowed people to prosper?

Melissa: What I found poignant about these scenes, is once again, when there the male figure in the house is absent (in this case, dead), the woman is stereotypically destitute. But at the other household, even though the man is in the home, he is a drunk (not much better than alive!), but this woman is thriving. What is it about a man, in literature, that determines the viability of a woman/family? The first family (sorry, I can’t remember their name and my book is in the car!), she has a brood of kids – and two grown boys that she is willing to send off with Gus and Call – couldn’t they be filling the proverbial shoes the missing father? But it also speaks to life on the frontier where families are miles and miles apart; land and it’s productive value is vastly different; and the inability to look after “one another’s neighbor.”

Amy:  Fascinating observations!  I didn't really think much about these scenes to be honest as I was reading, but I was amused by the line when the mom looked at the boys as if wondering why she'd born them.  I also thought it curious they'd be eager to be rid of the older boys when it seemed they could do more work.  But I guess by going off on the drive they are.

3. Lorena will do anything to get out of Lonesome Dove, even if means being the sole woman on the cattle drive to Montana. Would you have done the same? Thoughts on what might be up ahead for Lorena?

Leah: Bold move, Lorena that's what first comes to mind. I mean, no matter where and when, a bunch of dudes out in the middle of nowhere, things get rough and smelly. You overhear things you should never here, I don't care if you are a whore but yeah, I don't blame her. She's never seen Montana but trust me, I'd rather live there than the way Lonesome Dove sounds. Besides, she's stuck regardless so at least this way, she's doing something about her situation. You gotta respect that.

Melissa: Before I get to Lorena, I must say, all this “guy talk” of “pokes, roots, grunts” whatever adjectives McMurtry uses to designate sex it getting tiring. It’s what we call in our family “potty talk.” I’m just weary of it. At one point, he used the word “poke” 3-4 times on a page! Ugh! And the scene where Jake “pokes” Lorena after cutting horses, and the description of how dirty he is and the dirt/sand in the sheets – it grossed me out so I wanted to take a shower!

Now, to the question: I would do whatever it took to get out of the situation I was in. Period. And traveling with this group, isn’t that far off from the tales of Gen. Hooker’s band of women that followed him and his troops during the Civil War. I’m just wondering if she has to give services to all of her customers? Jake? Gus? Dish?

A final thought…although I am liking the book, it is much more of a chore to read than I thought it would be. I thought I would be swept away with the “grandeur” of it, but McMurtry, to this point, seems to write the same scenes over and over again. I used the word weary earlier, and that’s how I feel, weary.

Amy: I think Lorena is ready for her situation to change. She's been courageous throughout. She was already the only whore in town so she's a bit used to it. I find the sections about Lorena the most interesting, perhaps because she is the lone female character, and the way men feel about her interesting as well, like when Jake compares her to a mountain.

I'm actually enjoying the book much more than I thought I would. Admittedly, I was surprised we read another ten chapters with little action but it's much more amusing that I thought it would be and I'm hoping this careful characterization (such as that long section on how Deets likes the moon) will pay off.

Any thoughts you would like to share?

FINAL -- Wolf Hall Wednedays

I can't believe we are done!

Our intimate journey with every Thomas in 16th century England (or so it seemed), Henry, Anne and her ever meddlesome family (those Boleyn's had their hands in everything!)and an additional cast of characters I'm still trying to sort out, has come to an end. But luckily, none of us were beheaded or burned at the stake in the process. It was a great journey, one I couldn't have accomplished with out Leah at Amused by Books or Elise at Once, oh marvelous once. Poor Elise -- she has the Australian version of Wolf Hall which taps out at over 600 pages! The US version is only 530+. Do US publishers think we Yanks can't read that many pages? I'm curious. Needless to say, we've short changed Elise a bit by finishing this week, but I hope she has the determination to see it through to the end.

We hope you enjoy our thoughts and last discussion of Wolf Hall:

1. What did you think of Elizabeth Barton? Her visions and prophecies?

Gerbera Daisy Diaries – One of the things I found most interesting was that at a time when women couldn’t aspire to anything on their own, here was a woman who actually made a name for herself! Anne certainly couldn’t claim that – she needed to sleep with someone to gain recognition. This woman was a 16th century superstar –with a huge following. And was largely left on her own to continue her “preaching” and prophecies, that is until she started to rub Henry and Anne the wrong way. In a sick and twisted way, I was hoping one of her prophecies would come true –just to make them squirm! I also liked when Cromwell was interrogating her and he asked, “Where is Wolsey?” I can’t remember her exact remark (and I didn’t mark it in my book) but it was something about “he is where I left him.” Then one final comment, when Cromwell was going over the list of her last possessions, it lists 4 shillings – and he makes a comment, that she gets to keep that because she has to pay the executioner! Can you imagine?

Amused By Books - I really liked this character. I get that her visions were against the 'new' order and so Anne wanted to get rid of her. I also find it interesting that Cromwell, as it seemed so often in a lot of these situations, tried to give these people many chances to repent and be free. He offered to let her go among the country and say that she was making it all up, and although she remained locked up for, I think another year before actually being executed, eventually she wouldn't let it go and she was. I think it was interesting also because she appeared to be more popular or just as popular as the King. I am sure that pissed him off.

Once Oh Marvelous Once - I found her really interesting. I love the comparison of the then and now. People who make claims such as these today are sanctioned under mental health acts or appear on morning TV but are rarely taken seriously. I love that a woman (!) was able to make such an independent name for herself. I found her predictions really interesting, and also wanted some of them to be true because I am not a real fan of old Henry and Anne!

2. Page 396: “…At the moment of impact, the king’s eyes are open his body braced for the atteint (hit); he takes the blow perfectly, its force absorbed by a body securely armored, moving in the right direction, moving at the right speed. His color does not alter, His voice does not shake.” This is Henry’s reaction to the birth of Princess Elizabeth – any thoughts?

GDD – This was one of the more memorable passages for me. Where Mantel really shows her brilliance. How she uses battle terms -- fighting terms – to show how terrible and tragic it was to have a daughter. Can you imagine a modern day father in a hospital delivery room reacting the same way?? It’s comical to compare! And to know what Henry eventually did to Anne, and to think that this daughter he is taking a “beating” for ruled England for over 40 years – longer than any man, I think, to that point!

ABB - I just find it so fascinating that men, for centuries, assume it was the women's fault that they had female children. That these female children could not be loved as much or could not rule as well. How different society could have been and what a wonderful job his daughter Elizabeth did end up doing running England. I don't know, what an awful stress to put on something they have no control over. Geez Henry!

OOMO - I haven't read this bit yet, but agree with both of you that it is so sad and yet so interesting that women were blamed for the sex of the child. I can see both sides of that situation, women must determine the sex of the child because they carry it! And I find Elizabeth so fascinating, more so than Henry. Good for her being such a powerful and influential ruler!

3. Once Henry divorced Katherine, his daughter with his first wife Mary also seemed to be banished, even though she appeared to have a good relationship with her father. Did this surprise you?

ABB - The whole scene when Cromwell goes and visits the teenage Mary and the new Princess Elizabeth made me very sad. Mary was on a hunger strike and didn't want to be anywhere near the new princess. She had been the princess her entire life and all of a sudden had been usurped. Her dad was still alive. Did he not love her? As far as she was concerned he did. All Anne could produce was another female heir so Mary had more rights to the throne in Mary's eye than Anne did. Cromwell seemed to also really feel for Mary too. I don't know, that whole scene gave me a bad taste for Henry.

GDD – I guess nothing surprises me when it comes to Henry. But honestly, I think it was all Anne. I don’t think he would have sent her so far or so isolated if it hadn’t been for Anne. What was harder for me to deal with was that he split up Katherine and Mary.

OOMO - Again, the way families worked then (royal or otherwise) fascinates me! Surely they loved their children regardless. I agree, I think a lot of the estrangement was Anne's doing (she's a feisty minx isn't she?) and possibly also Catherine's. I do find it sad that she lost all claim to the throne, and subsequently all claim to her father.

4. The only other thing I might be willing to discuss are the last negotiations between Cromwell and More re his oath of succession. I thought Mantel wrote a beautiful “chess match” between all the players trying to persuade, cajole, empower, tempt, More to take this oath – even to cross his fingers! I thought it was brilliant.

GDD – This section of the book was one of my favorites. How easy it would have been for More to say, yes, I take the oath, it’s just words. No one wanted More to die. At one point, Cromwell even asks him if he remembers him at 7 years old – and More says, “you didn’t serve me then?” Just shows how long these two had been associated. They all were between their own “rocks and hard places.” No one had the ability to maneuver out of their positions. Very tragic.

ABB - I agree, this was a great building of tension within the book. More wanted to prove his point and was not going to back down. Cromwell, and Henry and Anne want to show that their new religious order is the right way, whereas More says he has centuries of saints and popes ands religious writings to back him up, they just have the Parliament. More is willing to die for his beliefs - what's more powerful than that?

5. How did you like the ending? Did you think it was fitting?

ABB - I honestly thought it was going to end with the death of Anne! Oh well! Towards the end it definitely did really build towards the death of More and that seemed to be the real point. More's view of religion versus Henry/Cromwell's interpretation. It's just, when you pick up and read an historical fiction book and expect it to end one way it just kind of surprised me.

GDD – I did too! But it certainly left it open for another 600 page sequel! And life seems so tranquil for Cromwell. He and Rafe are riding off the meet the King – with a stopover at Wolf Hall. Cromwell has NO idea what he has to face in the future -- what goes around, comes around!

Book Wrap Up

1. Using whatever rating system you use on your own blog, what you rate 'Wolf Hall'?

ABB - Ok if it wasn't for this read along I probably would have given up on this book awhile ago. I haven't put this much effort into finishing a book since school! It's not to say I didn't appreciate it, there was just so much superfluous information, I felt, and so so many characters. It was hard to wade through it all. I also had a hard time with the fact that quotes weren't always used and that 'he' was used too much when pretty much every conversation was with a group of men. So, in the end, I would have to say that I would give this a middling Grade C.

GDD – Although it was major confusing at times (the personal pronoun HE was a nightmare) – and I was still looking up characters at the end of the book – I loved it. I thought Mantel’s dialogue was some of the most brilliant I have ever read. It was authentic, powerful and the best part – witty! If I didn’t know better, I would have thought she’d discovered some long lost transcripts of these peoples conversations. Or she’d developed a time machine to go eaves drop on their conversations. We have no idea what personalities any of these individuals had – but I thought she was spot on in her descriptions. 4 out of 5 stars.

OOMO - I am confused and haven't finished, but I can't help really enjoying this book! I think that Hilary Mantel writes so beautifully and I am completely captivated by the book, if not often baffled by that damn 'he' pronoun!! Aargh! Even though I am super behind I am really enjoying it. I anticipate that I will be giving this a 3.5-4 stars.

2. Do you think this book was deserving of the Man Booker Prize?

ABB- Well, um, since so many books have been written about this time period I am not sure what is so different about it to make it deserving of the award besides the fact that it is written from Cromwell's perspective. I will say when it comes to the British Awards, I seem to like the Orange Prize for Fiction more than the Man Booker but I continue to read these in hopes that I will like them too!

GDD - Can’t answer that since A) I haven’t read any of the other books nominated with this one. Although, I wanted to read The Children’s Book by A. S. Byatt. Or B) I haven’t read any other Man Booker prize winner ever!! I agree, this topic is fairly saturated, but she made it modern and tangible to the 21st century.

OOMO- I have read half of The Children's Book and I (so far) think it deserved it more. However I haven't read any other of the shortlist nominees. I think it is extremely well written and appropriately epic, however I am often surprised by the winner of this prize.

3. What did you think of the read along?

ABB - I loved the experience of my first read along! Like I said above, I don't think I would have gotten through this book if it hadn't been for the read along. Also, I really wanted to read this book and I think this was the perfect format. It let me get to know Melissa at Gerbera Daisy Diaries better and to get to meet Elise at Once Oh Marvelous Once. I really hope we do one again, be it with next year's Man Booker winner or some classic that we want to re-read or something like that!

GDD - Absolutely LOVED the read along. Couldn’t have done this any other way. This book would have sat on my shelf for years. Agreed – loved being able to discuss it with Leah and Elise.

OOMO - I have really enjoyed the read along!! It has been so nice having weekly discussions with Leah and Melissa and getting to know them! I am very keen for further read alongs.

Ladies:  It's been so much fun!  I'm already going thru Wolf Hall withdrawals.  What am I going to post on Wednesday?

Thank you too to Hilary Mantel for writing such a marvelous book.  I've heard thru the book blogging grape vine that she is writing a sequel -- I will be 1st in line to buy it!

Week 4 -- Wolf Hall Wednesdays

The reading continues. In theory, this should have been our last weekly post, but I'm still about 200 pages from finishing, so I'm sure we will post at least 2 more weeks. Cromwell is such a fascinating figure -- this individual who is respected by all, regardless of whether you are a Katherine-ite or an Anne-ite.

Here is our discussion for this week:

Amused By Books: How's the reading coming? I feel like maybe we are coming into a little more action. Here's some questions for our discussion and feel free to add some more!

Gerbera Daisy Diaries: The pace is definitely quickening…I’m up to 340 – still behind, but not too bad.

1. The burning at the stake scene of the 'witch'. Let's discuss!

Amused By Books: It was horrific but I was left wondering what part it played in the story. I am often left wondering this with lots of scenes: why was this added in? I can only assume this was to still show us that Cromwell, while he is rising to power, still has a heart. He was deeply affected by the woman who was burned at the stake, whereas it seemed like a lot of those in the crowd were not. On another note, I think Mantel did a great job evoking the sights and sounds of this scene, which some parts have lacked.

Gerbera Daisy Diaries: One of the most effectively graphic scenes I have read in literature. I was left gasping. When the women’s friends and family come to gather her remains, and they wipe a portion on Cromwell’s cheek – I’m not even sure I can explain how I felt: Numb, mortified, sickened – so many emotions by one scene and sentence. I think you have a point – What does this have to do with the big picture? My only explanation: To give a more complete picture of who Thomas Cromwell is and what he has endured; to show how once he becomes the King’s advisor, he isn’t swayed by religious arguments – he is all about legal solutions/negotiations to solve Henry’s marriage problems absent the Pope; also, to show readers the madness that was gripping 16th century England and how that had an effect years later.

2. Cromwell seems to be fully rising to the peak of his power. How is handling it?

ABB: Maybe I am missing some things but to me Cromwell still seems to be a pretty good man at the heart of things. He wants to still do things for his family. When they went on that trip to France he was bringing poor people home to give them a roof over their head. Sometimes I feel like I missing some things because Mantel often insists on referring to multiple men in one scene as just "he" and, well, how the heck am I supposed to keep them all straight, but generally, I do think that Cromwell seems to be balancing his power well with both humor and kindness and that makes him someone worth admiring and there aren't a lot of people in this book who I would say that about.

GDD: One of my favorite scenes so far is Cromwell’s treatment of Henry Percy, once Percy decides to tell the “world” that he indeed was married to Anne Boleyn. It’s something strait out of Goodfellas or The Sopranos – he walks into the bar and basically gives Henry “an offer he can’t refuse.” (OK, that was the Godfather, but you get what I mean). He is this ruthless negotiator, but with a level head. He seems so admired by his peers – on both sides of this Henry/Katherine/Anne issue. I think HE is always Cromwell.

3. Anne Boleyn, in this section of the book, has finally reached her quest and become Queen of England. What do you think of Mantel's version of Anne?

ABB: I don't like Anne. She is not painted as an admirable figure at all. Knowing what we know, that she will be beheaded soon, I often find myself wondering if she really thinks this would all have been worth it. I mean she seems so pinched and angry at pretty much everyone around her - what an awful way to live one’s life. When they travel to France, she has to stay behind because it isn't safe for her to go forward because the rumors about her are so unkind. Her own people don't like her. I don't know, I guess I just often found myself wondering if it was all really worth it to her in the end.

GDD: No! You mean she becomes Queen??!! (tee hee!) I’m not there yet. But, yes, I agree, there is absolutely nothing redeeming about Mantel’s Anne. She is the master manipulator. I think a person like her, would never realize how bad things are going to be – and why should she? She’s got Henry, literally, by the balls (sorry, there is no other way to describe it). I’m sure she envisions that she will wield this kind of power of him forever.

A couple of comments/questions:

GDD: I’m surprised how FUNNY some of the dialogue is!! On page 296, Anne is retelling the Old Testament story of Jezebel and her demise (she was thrown out of a window and eaten by wild dogs). Anne says, “if anyone is to be thrown out of a palace window…Thomas, I know who I would like to throw. Except the child Mary, the wild dogs would not find a scrap of flesh to gnaw, and Katherine, she is so fat she would bounce.” I laughed out loud at that comment! Oh -- and I think that may explain the "shrimp" comment -- she may be TINY -- not ugly!

ABB: Totally agree! I think it's kind of unexpected in some ways because the story for most part, to me anyway can seem so dry and factual and then all of a sudden there are these really funny and/or gripping scenes that kind of throw you for a loop!

GDD: Also, what is the significance (if any) of the painting/tapestry/art that Cromwell has hanging in the entry of Austin Friars? I know it was a Wolsey’s and was gifted to Cromwell from the King. Everyone that comes to visit mentions it. Again, it may mean nothing other than the obvious: it is of value and a gift from the King.

ABB: I don't know but I wish I did! Do any of our fair readers know? I wish there was a picture of them in the book so we knew what they were. Maybe this weekend I could try to google them and see if I could uncover something about their significance!

If you haven any comments or thoughts, please share them with us! The reading continues!

Week 3 -- Wolf Hall Wednesdays!

We've now entered week 3 of Wolf Hall Wednesdays. I'm glad to have Leah from Amused by Books back! She's had to endure things I don't even want to imagine over the past two weeks. I think we are both behind in reading -- we expected to be over 300 pages by now -- I'm clocking in around 250 -- Leah is ahead a bit. The book's heft is starting to weigh on me. I still like it, but it's become more of a chore than an indulgence.

Leah came up with questions this week -- here are our thoughts:

1. We've spent a lot of time with Henry VIII now. What do you think of him as a king?

Amused By Books: It's fascinating to me how everyone's world revolves around this one man. I know that our tide shifts a lot when elect a new president but this seems a little ridiculous. His every whim is met without question. I don't necessarily think Henry is portrayed as a bad or selfish person, it just amazes me how someone is given so much power, and yet, will bow to Anne Boleyn. It's all very interesting.

Gerbera Daisy Diaries: I have this slovenly, overweight, overindulged, Henry VIII in my brain, when in fact, he doesn’t sound like that at all. I suppose that caricature comes much later in his life, but in my reading, my brain still wants to project that image. I’ve admitted to being a closet anglophile (how many days did I cry when Diana died??!!!), but this royalty thing, even now, is really over the top. That he can summons Cromwell to his bedside in the middle of the night (and he has to travel by BOAT to get there) to discuss a dream is mind boggling. And with regards to Anne Boleyn – it goes back to my “rules” theory – he wants her so bad, because he CAN’T have her. I don’t think it is anything particularly unique to Anne herself, other than the church says he can’t divorce Katherine (who I like more and more, by the way – are there any books on Katherine we can read?!) and Anne won’t give him what he wants, when EVERYONE else does.

OK, can I add a question: Why on earth do they keep referring to Mary as a “shrimp?” Is she THAT ugly???

ABB: I was thinking it was because she was shy? It could be because she's ugly! Yes - we need to research some Katherine books once we are done that we can read because I agree, she is an intriguing figure!

2. How are you keeping all of the characters straight?

ABB: Am I, really? Well the only thing that's helping is the fact that I have a degree in History but this wasn't my favorite time period. I'll tell you what is really helping is the proliferation of novels set in this time period that I've read recently. I don't find myself flipping to that chart at the front of the book. It's too dense of book to waste extra time. I'm just kind of barreling through!

GDD: Um…I’m not. There was a dinner scene I just finished, and when I got to the end, I thought, “who were those people?” The biggest mysteries: Brereton, Cranmer (another Thomas! Ugh!) Wriothesley – I have no idea what roles they play, other than they keep getting mentioned. But I’m doing the same – I can’t take the time to go back to the front as a reference – I just keep turning the pages hoping that it will all make sense in the end. And honestly, I know he plays an important role after Wolsey, but I still can’t figure out Thomas More.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with your question, but I was really disappointed in her treatment of Wolsey’s death. So anticlimactic.

ABB: Totally agree about the death being anti-climactic! They went on and on about how much money it would cost to bring him from wherever he was in hiding and how much Cromwell loved him and then, poof, he was dead. He was this character that was hated by so many, you would think that people would have been cheering in the streets while Cromwell would have been crying over the death of his mentor.

3. Wolf Hall has finally been mentioned. What kind of role do you expect it might play in upcoming events in the book?

ABB: Well if I understand what's happened correctly Wolf Hall is the ancestral home of the Seymour's and if I understand my history correctly, after Anne Boleyn, King Henry will go on to marry Jane Seymour so possibly Cromwell will help with that all at Wolf Hall. I don't know, just throwing out guesses here.

GDD: Totally agree. But so far, Mantel doesn’t portray Jane very well either. Like she is this fly on the wall -- kind of mysterious and unnoticed. I’m only speculating, but is she the one that starts the rumors about Anne and her brother George having a relationship?

Check out Elise's thoughts on our reading as well, here.

If anyone else is reading along -- what are your thoughts?

2nd Wednesday -- Wolf Hall Wednesday Read Along

Welcome to the second weekly discussion post as we continue grinding our way through Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel. I'm slightly behind schedule reading -- I planned on having 200 pages read by today, but I'm about 20 pages short. Not too bad in the scheme of things. I am still really liking this book -- Ms. Mantel has taken an often told historical period and made it modern and engaging.

Before we get started, my partner, Leah of Amused by Books, was dealt a terrible tragedy with the unexpected death of her father last weekend. She is taking either a temporary or permanent hiatus from our read along, for obvious reasons. She needs to care for her self and her family. I wish her love, comfort and peace of mind during this heartbreaking loss.

One of our read alongees, Elise of Once, Oh Marvelous Once, is going to share some of her thoughts about the book in light of Leah's absence.

To this point, what or who do you find the most intriguing:

Gerbera Daisy Diaries: This story is not new – it’s the subject of many historical fiction novels, it’s been made into a major motion picture – but overall, I’m surprised at how fresh Mantel’s writing makes this feel. This conflict with Henry/Katherine/Anne/Wolsey/Norfolk/Suffolk – could be any modern day powerplay. Cromwell could just as easily be a Hollywood agent as he tries to get his “client” the King, what he wants. It just shows that human nature is really timeless. People having been trying to “have their cake and eat it too” for millennia. Also, Cromwell is fascinating. He survives (or it seems he will – I haven’t gotten to that point) his association with Wolsey to become an advisor to the King. Washington lobbyists could be so lucky!

Elise: I don't know this story hugely well, I have a friend who is Henry VIII mad and want to call her and find out the specifics because I am so confused!! I'm also confused by popular culture and history and really struggling to take this as a story in itself, and not a strict true historical account. I keep thinking back to The Other Boleyn Girl (of which I have only seen the film, not read the book) which is apparently quite fictional, and am completely confused now!! However I am really interested in the character of Rafe, a young man taken in by Thomas Cromwell. He seems like a smart kid and I feel that he is important to the story. Not sure where it's going with him or if I'm right though!!

So far, Anne is still on the periphery, but do you have any thoughts or feelings about her:

GDD: Years ago, there was a book written (in the States anyway) called “The Rules.” In its essence it was written as a template to find the man of your dreams by doing, or not doing, certain things. Every time Anne is referenced or introduced in dialogue I immediately think, “She was the FIRST Rules woman!” She used every womanly sexual instinct (good and bad) to get what she wanted. Not sure Henry was the man of her dreams after all, since she lost her head over him. But it worked for awhile. Also, and this is a segue, but, Henry and Anne remind me of Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, two people who couldn’t live with or without each other for very long.

Elise: Well I know that she is going to end up headless at the end of this story! I feel that she is a bit of a femme fatale, that she will do anything to get her way. Mary (her sister) has identified her virtue of 'perseverance' and I think it is historically clear that this is true. Anne is like that girl at school that you never speak to, but know about. She is always around and always the centre of gossip but not someone that you would ever have the courage to speak to or even want to speak to. She is also currently too much on the periphery for me to feel any emotional connection or empathy towards her.

What, if any, are your thoughts on the religious conflict:

GDD: Not being Catholic, I’m at a disadvantage of not knowing doctrine or cannon law to understand the intricacies of what happened, but as a spiritual/religious person, I’m gobsmacked that this was so ruthless, political and so NOT spiritual. Now, I’m not totally naïve to know that the Papacy was not the most honorable institution at this time and prone to corruption, but the wheeling and dealing that took place to get this done, initially, is against all that I believe.

Elise: This isn't something that has really affected me so far. Is that a terribly naive and ignorant thing to say about this book? Probably! I understand that during this time period, Henry's desire for a marriage annulment or divorce resulted in the creation of the Church of England as a separate entity and resulted in Henry VIII's excommunication by the Pope. It is so ruthless and cunning that I find it difficult to associate this with any form of fact. At the moment for me, it is great as part of a fictional plot, but I think once I've finished and reflect I will be able to appreciate the impact of it all.

Thank you Elise for sharing your thoughts.

If anyone is reading along with us and would like to ask/offer discussion issues, feel free!

Welcome to Wolf Hall Wednesdays Read Along!

Today is the inaugural post of my my series -- Wolf Hall Wednesdays -- with Leah at Amused by Books, as we navigate, discuss and encourage each other through our reading of the Man Booker Prize Award winning novel, Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel.

This is a month long goal to read all 560 pages by May 31st. Each Wednesday, we will report back to each other and those who want to participate (remember it is a read along!). It's not too late to join us! I'm already behind schedule, but life can't stop entirely for Wolf Hall. Nonetheless, we have begun our reading -- and so far, LOVE the book in spite of its heft. Here are our first thoughts on the book:

1. What do you think of Mantel's writing style?

Amused By Books - Honestly, I was surprised that she jumped right in without really setting up the story. Yes, there was the whole part before the book began where she outlined chapter by chapter with each character that was in it like it was some sort of play but I am not going to spend my time flipping back and forth to that like it's some sort of reference book. I've got better things to do with my time -like read! I do appreciate the genealogy and some set up like that but I also want some of the scene to be set in a historical fiction. It does appear to jump around from chapter to chapter. I'm finding it a bit confusing.

Gerbera Daisy Diaries:

My 1st thought when I cracked the cover: when an author devotes 4 pages to names/characters and who they are before the book even starts, it doesn't bode well for this reader. That being said, I'm surprised how I'm FOLLOWING it! I actually like her writing style. I was expecting old fashioned, Shakespearean-like prose, for some reason, so the fact that she's writing with modern language is a huge plus. You are farther along than I am, so it could get more confusing the deeper you get into the book. Ugh.

2. What do you think of the historical setting?

ABB - I've read a lot of books recently set during Henry VIII's reign and so I am somewhat familiar with this time frame and I am glad of that. I don't think I would know what was going on if I hadn't read some of these recently, or at least it might take me a lot longer to figure it out. Barring that though, I like that Mantel doesn't have her characters talk with too much affectation so that they are pretty easy to understand and it doesn't always feel like it's set so long ago.

GDD:
It goes without saying that one of the reasons this book intrigued me so WAS the historical setting! I LOVE this time period. Not that I’ve taken tons of classes or spent time reading books on Tudor England, but I am a closet anglophile, so this is great. And, I echo the above, I was expecting a much more difficult time trying to “read” this – but she isn’t using any antiquated English for her characters. Thank goodness!

3. Are there any stand out characters for you at this early stage?

ABB
I like Cardinal Wolsey - he seems to be a trouble maker. I am not saying I like him morally - just that he seems to be stirring up trouble.

GDD
So far the only two major characters that I’ve had to get a grasp on are Cromwell and Wolsey. If there is any truth to her historical fiction, I had no idea Cromwell left home at 14-15 yrs old and that his father was such a brute. I love Cromwell’s relationship with his wife, Liz. And the dynamic between Wolsey and Cromwell is so intriguing! I can’t wait to see what happens, because honestly (historically), I don’t remember!

This is a huge, dense, book – but if I can stay on track with my reading – I think I can accomplish this! Don’t give up on me Leah!

Announcing the Wolf Hall Read Along!

What do you do when you have a book so long you can't possibly read it without feeling defeated before the 1st page?? You find a friend with the same book, commit to 100 pages a week, set a deadline, and hopefully both succeed reading it and enjoying the discussion along the way!

That is what Leah at Amused By Books and I have done! Both of us received Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel for Christmas. The book has languished on our shelves staring us down like a rabid dog, taunting us to read it.

So here we go -- our first ever Read Along! Please join us! Our official kick off date is May 1st -- and we are giving everyone who wants to participate the WHOLE month of May to finish by May 31st.

We will report back each Wednesday (hence Wolf Hall Wednesdays) with commentary and questions between me and Leah. Our goal is to read 100 pages per week or 17 pages a day. Whew -- it makes me sweat just thinking about it.

We hope more will join us -- it will be much more fun that way.